Vajracakra

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 Post subject: Some questions
PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:08 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:34 pm
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Wasn't sure the right place to ask, but this seemed to be the best spot.
I was wondering if anyone could help me clear up some misunderstandings?

As I was told on the other place Yogacara and Madhyamaka do not have any common ground.
My understanding was that Śāntarakṣita advocated using Yogacara to understand conventional truth and that Madhyamaka is best in trying to understand ultimate truth. I thought maybe some folks had done something similar prior to Śāntarakṣita, particularly in East Asia.
Am I off base here with my characterization of Śāntarakṣita?
Would something like the above be out of the question?
If so, what am I screwing up?

Thanks in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: Some questions
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:12 am 
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Looks like I have some reading to do...
The Wisdom of Nagarjuna by Dr Peter Della Santina
Manjushrimitra's 'Bodhicittabhavana'
'Madhyamaka Schools in India'
'The Adornment of the Middle Way: Shantarakshita's Madhyamakalankara With Commentary by Jamgon Mipham'
'Speech Of Delight: Mipham's Commentary On Santaraksita's Ornament Of The Middle Way'
'Literature of the Madhyamaka School of Philosophy in India' David Seyfort Ruegg
Writings of Douglas Duckworth


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 Post subject: Re: Some questions
PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:12 pm 
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I have no clue on the scholarly answer here at all, but in a practical sense for meditators, the schools are often just presented as levels of understanding. Offhand A Profound Mind by HHDL, and Stages of Meditation on Emptiness by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamsto (the most clear book I've read on the subject sp far) both simply present mind-only as a stage pf progression, and see Madhyamaka as definitve, except to complicate matters Gyamsto is a Shentongpa and sees it as the real deal.


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 Post subject: Re: Some questions
PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:33 pm 
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What is this, the DW mods thread? Image

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Through Dzogchen we can really understand what God is and we don’t have to worry if there is a God or not. God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu


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 Post subject: Re: Some questions
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:36 pm 
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http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=c+o ... B0B1C0E12B


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 Post subject: Re: Some questions
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:12 pm 
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LOL at dzogchungpa's comment & the video.

I guess the things I find interesting about Yogacara are not really the specific concepts such as the alaya consciousness (which is actually pretty widely accepted in East Asian Mahayana) or the idea that Mind alone is real. What interests me is the idea that all of our experiences are shaped by our mental states. I fully understand that this idea isn't really even exclusive to Yogacara, I see it in a lot of sutras - like the section "Dream Experiences and the Mark of Irreversibility" or Chapter XXI "Maras Deeds" in the Astasahasrika (8,000 line) Prajnaparamita. It's just because these ideas are often associated with Yogacara thought that I even bring up Yogacara.

The thing is, I see this truth in my daily life. If I'm in a bad mood, I perceive things differently than if I'm in a good mood. If I've embraced negative thoughts, I perceive things differently than if I've embraced positive thoughts. On a somewhat larger scale, past mental volitions (karma) create habits & results such that a text may be profound to me, but just so much waste paper to someone else. Or like how a glass of wine with dinner for my wife is a healthy way to bring her blood pressure down, whereas for me, it can kick off an all-night drinking binge (I kind of have to abstain from alcohol altogether if I really want to keep it under control).

It'd be nice to know if there was any Madhyamaka text that talked about this type of stuff. In that case, I wouldn't worry much over Yogacara specifics and only digest those aspects that reconcile.


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 Post subject: Re: Some questions
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:39 pm 
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couple things I forgot....

First, I remember the analogy of the rope & the snake from HHDL's Heart Sutra or a writing by Lama Zopa Rinpoche (maybe both) - and seem to remember it being a common simile used by the Prasangikas. I've just never been sure if the message they're trying to get across agrees with what I stated above or is more about the fact that conventional appearances require a conventionally "valid base".

Second, no disrespect intended, but my first thought upon Googling Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso was "I want to party with THAT guy!"

Image
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Some questions
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:38 pm 
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Hahah!

BTW, speaking of him, his book Stars of Wisdom...I think it has a very good explanation of Yogacara, and possibly how it would fit with, or contrasted to Madhyamaka...it had the best explanation of the Three Natures that i've read.

My own teacher has said iirc (and I think i've read this elsewhere too) that Yogacara/Mind-only is really the most important to understand from the point of view of the meditator, if one is not aiming to be a scholar etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Some questions
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:57 am 
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Hmm ... What does that Malcolm guy know that we don't? ..


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 Post subject: Re: Some questions
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:48 am 
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TexasBuddhist wrote:
Hmm ... What does that Malcolm guy know that we don't? ..


Who are you? :thnking

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