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 Post subject: Re: Vivid Awareness
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:13 pm 
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My diarreah is very nonconceptuality. And I don't have to cultivate it. So I'm practicing Dzogchen in many short sessions throughou

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 Post subject: Re: Vivid Awareness
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:17 pm 
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flyboy216 wrote:
Are there Dzogchen gurus who normally teach like Thrangu Rinpoche does here?



Kind of reminds me of Tsoknyi Rinpoche.

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 Post subject: Re: Vivid Awareness
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:27 pm 
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flyboy216 wrote:
And there's another difference I have detected while receiving teachings in these two traditions, which is why I started this thread. Namely: if one recognizes concretely, directly, unequivocally that awareness is insubstantial, un-stainable, and not subject to death, this can be considered (considerable) recognition of mind essence and seems to "qualify" for differentiating "mind from awareness" (as Thrangu Rinpoche calls it). On the other hand, the "bar" for distinguishing sems and rigpa in Dzogchen sometimes seems to be higher.

Given that there are obviously different degrees of rigpa, it shouldn't be too surprising if the "bar" for using that term (or "thamal gyi shepa") varies from teacher to teacher. And in Mahamudra, given that recognition may proceed more gradually (or so I'm told), there seem to be more place for variability.

But possibly this is only my own perception.


Maybe the following quote I stole from another thread may be relevant to my above question:

But what we call the state of rigpa is not exactly the nature of the mind.

The nature of the mind is already a kind of construct or concept to explain that this thing mind has its characteristic, its quality of nature. We're not saying that the nature of the mind is something concrete, some kind of object. But, if I use this term, the nature of the mind, you get some kind of notion because you already know what mind is.

But you mustn't understand rigpa, the state of rigpa, like that.

-- ChNN (Talks in Conway, USA - 1982/83)

It seems to me that "recognizing the nature of mind" or "recognizing mind essence" (e.g., as described in my own quoted post) may be enough to be considered "distinguishing mind and awareness" for some teachers (or sems and sems-nyid), but is still not rigpa as ChNN describes it.

The reason I ask is that, if "rigpa," "tha mal gyi shes pa," "recognition of mind essence," etc. are considered interchangeable, this makes instructions from various Mahamudra and Dzogchen texts harder to reconcile.

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 Post subject: Re: Vivid Awareness
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:38 pm 
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flyboy216 wrote:

The reason I ask is that, if "rigpa," "tha mal gyi shes pa," "recognition of mind essence," etc. are considered interchangeable, this makes instructions from various Mahamudra and Dzogchen texts harder to reconcile.



I am pretty sure that someone already explained this to you.

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 Post subject: Re: Vivid Awareness
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:48 pm 
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Ah yes in a PM you did explain that experiences of the nature of mind are not necessarily rigpa. This terminology is common across traditions and teachers? If so it is very much unclear in most texts -- but of course that's why they are read under the guidance of a teacher.

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 Post subject: Re: Vivid Awareness
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:16 pm 
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For example it may be said "recognize mind essence and rest evenly in that. Then they call this the natural state, which is commonly equated with rigpa.

Anyway, it seems there's little sense in trying to resolve this.

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This undistracted state of ordinary mind / Is the meditation. / One will understand it in due course. -- Gampopa

When all that needs to be done is to rest in yourself, it is amazing that you are deluded by seeking elsewhere!
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 Post subject: Re: Vivid Awareness
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:18 pm 
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Then again, the resting evenly makes all the difference.

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This undistracted state of ordinary mind / Is the meditation. / One will understand it in due course. -- Gampopa

When all that needs to be done is to rest in yourself, it is amazing that you are deluded by seeking elsewhere!
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 Post subject: Re: Vivid Awareness
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:20 am 
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flyboy216 wrote:
For example it may be said "recognize mind essence and rest evenly in that. Then they call this the natural state, which is commonly equated with rigpa.

Anyway, it seems there's little sense in trying to resolve this.


In Mahamudra the distinction between mind and nature of mind isn't done in the beginning of practice. It comes with experience and the masters timely instructions. In Dzogchen this distinction is done from the beginning.

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Vivid Awareness
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:57 am 
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Well said, except for the Ganges type .

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 Post subject: Re: Vivid Awareness
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:42 am 
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amanitamusc wrote:
Well said, except for the Ganges type .


Yes, essence Mahamudra is just like Dzogchen trechö. This is according to my masters teachings, other people might have received different teachings.

/magnus

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