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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:25 pm 
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KTGR says:

If the student develops certainty that the mind is free from coming and going, free from arising, abiding and ceasing, then the student is said to have recognized the nature of mind. That doesn’t mean that the student has direct realization experience; in this context realization means to have certainty.
http://jayakula.org/pdf/TsultrimGyamtso.pdf

He seems to be using three terms here: (1) certainty; (2) recognition of the nature of mind; (3) direct realization experience; (4) realization.

He says 1 and 2 are the same, and then later also equates 1 and 4. So I guess 3 is the odd one out. With a dollop of luck I'll get to ask him in person in the near future, but maybe there are some here who are qualified and willing to comment.

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This undistracted state of ordinary mind / Is the meditation. / One will understand it in due course. -- Gampopa

When all that needs to be done is to rest in yourself, it is amazing that you are deluded by seeking elsewhere!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:02 pm 
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It seems to me most likely a translation issue, and that he's just drawing the distinction between recognition and the realization that comes from sufficient familiarization or acclimatization.

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This undistracted state of ordinary mind / Is the meditation. / One will understand it in due course. -- Gampopa

When all that needs to be done is to rest in yourself, it is amazing that you are deluded by seeking elsewhere!
-- Saraha


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:34 pm 
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flyboy216 wrote:
KTGR says:

If the student develops certainty that the mind is free from coming and going, free from arising, abiding and ceasing, then the student is said to have recognized the nature of mind. That doesn’t mean that the student has direct realization experience; in this context realization means to have certainty.
http://jayakula.org/pdf/TsultrimGyamtso.pdf

He seems to be using three terms here: (1) certainty; (2) recognition of the nature of mind; (3) direct realization experience; (4) realization.

He says 1 and 2 are the same, and then later also equates 1 and 4. So I guess 3 is the odd one out. With a dollop of luck I'll get to ask him in person in the near future, but maybe there are some here who are qualified and willing to comment.


Three and four are the same, in other words he is clarifying what "realization" means in "direct realization experience".

The first term ought to be "ascertain", i.e., "If the student has ascertained that the mind is free from coming and going, free from arising, abiding and ceasing, then the student is said to have recognized the nature of mind."

With this slight adjustment then, everything should make sense to you.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:22 pm 
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Thank you! Yes, it makes sense now :)

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This undistracted state of ordinary mind / Is the meditation. / One will understand it in due course. -- Gampopa

When all that needs to be done is to rest in yourself, it is amazing that you are deluded by seeking elsewhere!
-- Saraha


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:23 am 
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flyboy216 wrote:
With a dollop of luck I'll get to ask him in person in the near future, but maybe there are some here who are qualified and willing to comment.


I'm definitely not qualified to comment but from what I have heard Rinpoche is not in great health at the moment and really isn't teaching anymore. That said, if you have the chance to meet him by all means take it to make such an auspicious connection. Maybe you can even sing a doha with our generation's Mila!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:05 pm 
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Yes, so I've heard :( Is it a recent development? Just two months ago DzPR seemed to think he was in good enough health to receive visitors.

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This undistracted state of ordinary mind / Is the meditation. / One will understand it in due course. -- Gampopa

When all that needs to be done is to rest in yourself, it is amazing that you are deluded by seeking elsewhere!
-- Saraha


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:38 am 
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My friend had an interview with him less than 2 weeks ago...said he was frail but in good spirits.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:14 pm 
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So good to hear!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:41 pm 
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Indeed, excellent to hear :) Thank you.

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This undistracted state of ordinary mind / Is the meditation. / One will understand it in due course. -- Gampopa

When all that needs to be done is to rest in yourself, it is amazing that you are deluded by seeking elsewhere!
-- Saraha


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:26 am 
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Had to share this excellent quote from Tsele Natsok Rangdrol:

Similarly, there are various systems concerning the differences between experience and realization. Some have taught that the three levels of One-pointedness are only experience and not actual realization. The different teachings appear to have countless details, such as accepting that the mind-essence is seen at the time of having reached Nonmeditation and so forth.

Since all these teachings are compassionate manifestations intended as means to tame the infinite number of inclinations and dispositions of people, respectfully speaking, you need not regard one teaching as the exclusive truth. I, myself, have not reached, perceived or understood all these stages. So how can I set down any maxims as to what is the case and reasonable or that such and such is not the case and unreasonable?


Rangdrol, Tsele Natsok (2011-12-13). Heart Lamp: Lamp of Mahamudra and The Heart of the Matter (pp. 33-34). Random House Inc Clients. Kindle Edition.

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This undistracted state of ordinary mind / Is the meditation. / One will understand it in due course. -- Gampopa

When all that needs to be done is to rest in yourself, it is amazing that you are deluded by seeking elsewhere!
-- Saraha


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