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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:21 pm 
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Two weeks ago I was walking down the street with ven. Khenpo Choephel R. and we were kind of talking, catching up, and then stopped talking, and we were walking in silence for a while. Then, out of nowhere, it felt like all the pressure got let out of my mind, like I was a balloon and it popped, its really hard to describe, but all of a sudden i was in a state of clarity... just tranquil openness, totally different from where i was 2 seconds ago, and i knew it was because of the presence of the lama. It lasted about a couple minutes, and we just walked in silence.. it was like I was dreaming. I didn't ask Khenpo what it was because I wasn't sure he "felt" it or if it would make sense (his english is not so good). When we got to our destination, we just parted ways, he didn't say anything or act like he knew something wild just happend to me.. so I didn't think much of it at the time. But a couple weeks later I am still working with that openness in meditation.

So two points: one, I know that trying to get back to a previous "peak" state is generally a bad idea, but in the case of direct introduction to dzogchen, or essence mahamudra (which Khenpo teaches for those of you that didn't follow that link up there), isn't the point: to be introduced to the natural state of mind by the lama and then work with that recognition later in meditation?

and secondly, if that sort of experience sounds like the pointing out of the mind, can that happen spontaneously? Has anyone heard in their studies or encounters of someone entering the natural state like that?

Sorry if these questions are impossible to answer, I figured I had to ask because I am really amazed by that state, and by working with it I can generate a certain openness that I think is beneficial. Khenpo is in Nepal until February so I missed my chance to ask him, but I am hoping some of you might shed light on my experience. Thank you very kindly for reading this.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:09 pm 
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konchog uma wrote:
So two points: one, I know that trying to get back to a previous "peak" state is generally a bad idea, but in the case of direct introduction to dzogchen, or essence mahamudra (which Khenpo teaches for those of you that didn't follow that link up there), isn't the point: to be introduced to the natural state of mind by the lama and then work with that recognition later in meditation?


Yes, the introduction and recognition is the most important point, but also there is no need to rush. I think that we very much wish to have a kind of confirmation, as if we could say "Oh now I´ve got it. But the trick is that in the state of recognition of mind´s nature there is no concept like "oh, this is it." So on the one side we tend to hanker for some kind of certainity and on the other we have a lot of doubts thinking: "Is this it? Maybe not, or yes?" but all these thoughts are just sign that we are distracted and we are not in the state of recognition. So I´d say it is better to leave thought to themselves and not to carry them on. The more we get familiar with different experiences the more clarity we can have about the natural state, so there is no need to seek some confirmation or dwell in the doubts, the easiest way is just to let all be and become more familiar with practice and the experiences of practice. Then things will come easily and naturaly.

konchog uma wrote:
and secondly, if that sort of experience sounds like the pointing out of the mind, can that happen spontaneously? Has anyone heard in their studies or encounters of someone entering the natural state like that?


Sure since the primordial bodhicitta is always present, the recognition can happen any moment and under any circumstances, even while sitting on the toilet.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:03 pm 
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thank you dzoki. yes i feel a need to pinpoint "what was that" because it was powerful and meaningful (for lack of better words) but also am aware of the silliness of that endeavor and a deep need to just let it be, free of contrivance in and of itself.

"Sure since the primordial bodhicitta is always present, the recognition can happen any moment and under any circumstances, even while sitting on the toilet."

of course how self-evident :) i appreciate your pointing that out, thank you


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:33 pm 
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If you have devotion to the dharma and the lineage, this sort of thing can happen in the presence of an accomplished teacher. But this is experience (nyams) and not realization (rtogs pa). The two should not be confused.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:31 am 
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But Jinzang, doesn't one need the "experience" to get to the realization?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:45 am 
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konchog uma wrote:
Two weeks ago I was walking down the street with ven. Khenpo Choephel R. and we were kind of talking, catching up, and then stopped talking, and we were walking in silence for a while. Then, out of nowhere, it felt like all the pressure got let out of my mind, like I was a balloon and it popped, its really hard to describe, but all of a sudden i was in a state of clarity... just tranquil openness, totally different from where i was 2 seconds ago, and i knew it was because of the presence of the lama. It lasted about a couple minutes, and we just walked in silence.. it was like I was dreaming. I didn't ask Khenpo what it was because I wasn't sure he "felt" it or if it would make sense (his english is not so good). When we got to our destination, we just parted ways, he didn't say anything or act like he knew something wild just happend to me.. so I didn't think much of it at the time. But a couple weeks later I am still working with that openness in meditation.

So two points: one, I know that trying to get back to a previous "peak" state is generally a bad idea, but in the case of direct introduction to dzogchen, or essence mahamudra (which Khenpo teaches for those of you that didn't follow that link up there), isn't the point: to be introduced to the natural state of mind by the lama and then work with that recognition later in meditation?

and secondly, if that sort of experience sounds like the pointing out of the mind, can that happen spontaneously? Has anyone heard in their studies or encounters of someone entering the natural state like that?

Sorry if these questions are impossible to answer, I figured I had to ask because I am really amazed by that state, and by working with it I can generate a certain openness that I think is beneficial. Khenpo is in Nepal until February so I missed my chance to ask him, but I am hoping some of you might shed light on my experience. Thank you very kindly for reading this.


Yes. Yes. But not spontaneously; there was a subtle requesting and a subtler responding which led to your direct introduction via silence. When the master is in complete silence, our minds can sense that. That's why master is so important. We can sense some little bit of emptiness by this word. But the master shows us much deeper thoroughgoing feeling of void. That part you did not expect. So you thought its was spontaneous. If you pray to him even, his psychic power extends across space and time. Your mind can instantaneously enter via guru forever. That proves dharmakaya is beyond everything. And that it is your mind proves you are not perceiving any guru there. You have manifested your own dream of these things. Gurus are like alarm clocks we inserted into the dream matrix. We see them then we wake up. There's no guru there at all actually. Mere play of lights.

_________________
El Perdedor


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:10 pm 
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Arnoud wrote:
But Jinzang, doesn't one need the "experience" to get to the realization?


I can't say it's strictly necessary, but yes, generally experience precedes realization. The problem is that in confusing the two. One comes to think that bliss, for example, is a quality of realization. All sorts of problems can come from this. First, one judges one's experiences by how blissful they are and if they are not, one thinks that realization has slipped away. One cannot relate to difficult situations, one thinks that realization is incomplete and one needs to be vanquish the difficulty. All sorts of obstacles arize to realization when one confuses experience with realization.


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 1:50 pm 
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An important point I think...CTR used to say that the nature of mind is without scent or taste. It is just clarity.
But the mind AFTER the event needs to orientate itself , and so it provides blisses and other experiences as a means of giving itself a context and raison d'etre.


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