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 Post subject: Ownership
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:06 pm 
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How does one own something? How does one acquire ownership over an object? How is it transferred? What exactly is stealing?

Thank you :thankyou

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 Post subject: Re: Ownership
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:53 am 
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The idea of ownership is a convention.
Which does not mean that it has no legal or social reality.


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 Post subject: Re: Ownership
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:35 am 
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Simonagain wrote:
The idea of ownership is a convention.
Which does not mean that it has no legal or social reality.


Agreed. In mainstream historical work, utility became ownership along with the agricultural revolution when nomads started to settle down and accrue food. Both the accrued stores and the source - land - became worth controlling and modern history follows that. All political theory since then has really only been attempts to parse the complexities of ownership and utility, because ownership, in principle, is limitation placed on utility.

If you're asking about the idea as it intersects with Buddhist ethics, I'd say that Simon's point is the pertinent one. The fact that there is no absolute foundational premise underpinning ownership shouldn't be surprising. There's no absolute premise underpinning anything, properly speaking, and everything is a convention in varying degree.

But the injunction to "not steal" isn't predicated on "stealing" being a definitive moral bad. On one level it's because of the harm it causes to others' minds, who believe that they've been robbed of both ownership and utility, irrespective of the merits of that belief. In that sense it's a type of ahimsa. On another related level, it's about protecting your own mind from entrenching disregard and disrespect to others, or negligent lack of concern, with the associated karmic effects that has on you. Those emotions harden in the mind into contempt for others, and that contempt is a klesa. On even another hand, it relates to the attachment to the object or service stolen, and the various klesas associated with that.

So, invalidating the foundational truth of "ownership" won't free you from the injunction not to steal. From a Buddhist point of view, the only thing that frees you from that injunction is to lose your commitment to delusion and therefore to klesas. Then you probably won't "steal" anyway, as you have no impulse or trigger to acquire. In essence, natural behavior converges on the formally "ethical", and as you progress towards natural behavior, your ethics and compassion emerge spontaneously.

The book/copyright/copying/scanning debate is a slightly different one, because there are unknowns about the nature and merits of those legal rights and controls, but while they exist and are in flux, you have to apply some level of respect towards them, and test yourself and your own involvement in creating klesas.


d


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 Post subject: Re: Ownership
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:17 am 
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Excellent.


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 Post subject: Re: Ownership
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:56 am 
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Did the Buddha go into detail about the concept of stealing?

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 Post subject: Re: Ownership
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:17 am 
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You are asking whether the historical Shakyamuni created a form of words which answers your questions on this issue in an unambiguous way as the followers of the Hinayana believe?


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 Post subject: Re: Ownership
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:52 am 
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Simonagain wrote:
You are asking whether the historical Shakyamuni created a form of words which answers your questions on this issue in an unambiguous way as the followers of the Hinayana believe?


Yes.

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 Post subject: Re: Ownership
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:02 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:44 am
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Location: South Africa
http://www.accesstoinsight.org

they have a search function.

however, being that this is a vajrayana forum, you would probably be advised to reference traditional vajrayana commentaries such as those contained in the various lam rims, as well as other commentarial material regarded as authoritative by the vajrayana tradition. quite a lot of that commentarial and pedagogic material is available online.


regards


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